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art
Polly Apfelbaum and Madeline Hollander | 'Some People See Time' at the Dries Van Noten Little House
\_Y4A5385.jpg ![_Y4A5385.jpg](https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/56c346b607eaa09d9189a870/1630440926752-H066JHQUB8KLUCKOVCLV/_Y4A5385.jpg) The Dries Van Noten Little House welcomes its first two-person exhibition, _Some People See Time_ by artists Polly Apfelbaum and Madeline Hollander. In the exhibition, open through September 11, 2021, the artists work in a dialogue one color, movement, texture, and tempo with Hollander’s choreographic drawings, made into a calendar of sorts, and Apfelbaum’s “fallen paintings” of fabric strewn about the floor, shifting every week of the exhibition. In the exhibition text from Stephen Westfall, he writes, “The synesthete toggles across the border between anguish and reverie. Kandinsky would have to commit himself to bed for days at a time when overcome by synesthesia-induced headaches, but he also envisioned abstract painting when immersed in a yellow cloud during a performance of his friend, Schoenberg’s music. The otherwise uncommunicative, seemingly catatonic subjects of Oliver Sacks’ essay ‘The Twins’ would call out impossibly large prime numbers to each other and rock back and forth in subdued ecstasy, a story which brings me to numbers as vessels of color and flavor. Madeline Hollander and I disagree vehemently over the taste and color of the numeral ‘5,’ for instance, but we both see its aura and taste it.” _Flaunt_ caught up with the artists to discuss _Some People See Time_, the choreography of the space, synesthesia, and ask the question: _is seeing believing?_ \_Y4A5363.jpg ![_Y4A5363.jpg](https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/56c346b607eaa09d9189a870/1630440957428-2M8OC1T83YXP8DSHCU42/_Y4A5363.jpg) **We're talking about _Some People See Time_, the new show that's at the Dries Van Noten Little House in Los Angeles. I want to begin with the interplay of the pieces on the wall and then the pieces on the floor. The show is so much about time and movement, and the way that the pieces on the floor mimic the diagrams and the paintings is interesting.**  **That opens a conversation for the collaboration between the two of you and how you both engaged with this idea of time represented through movement.**  **Madeline:** I feel like we have a lot of good backstories to kind of even get to that.  I think what's really important to me is how Polly and I have been having this back and forth, and we've collaborated together on several shows now. They've always been very much directly in conversation with each other, whether it's me creating a performance I know that Polly is presenting, or us collaborating on the same work where it's Polly's drop-off on the floor. But I created a notation system that goes on top of the drop-off and something that I think I started around the conversation of time and building this calendar and talking about movement and pattern.  One of the things that I've been personally thinking about a lot this year, when I feel like there's been zero structure—time has been very amorphous and mysterious. Because I feel like days of the week evaporated, weekends evaporated, months went by super quickly or slowly. I found myself really drawn to ways that I visualize days of the week or months or the calendar, as a type of structure that was just completely lacking, because of everything kind of turning inside out and backwards through the pandemic, of how many times shows got postponed or delayed or canceled. And same with rehearsals, same with meeting up with friends. For me, I was really drawn to creating this very structured system, using my color language. Polly is a master of color, even if she thinks she doesn't have synesthesia. I know she does deep down, ‘cause it's impossible. Just looking at your work, it’s actually impossible you don't. And I think several people agree with me on that.  ![_Y4A5293.jpg](https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/56c346b607eaa09d9189a870/1630440988486-GKZE2BH9Y0OPPX3VVK5K/_Y4A5293.jpg) ![_Y4A5295.jpg](https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/56c346b607eaa09d9189a870/1630440988551-ZYFC2MCOA2G517B3W2MT/_Y4A5295.jpg) ![_Y4A5297.jpg](https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/56c346b607eaa09d9189a870/1630440991608-KNNPGZ6E0DWGB0Z1HAYJ/_Y4A5297.jpg) ![_Y4A5300.jpg](https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/56c346b607eaa09d9189a870/1630440991766-Y1RXYMY9IHAJCJ8E5MU2/_Y4A5300.jpg) ![_Y4A5304-Edit.jpg](https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/56c346b607eaa09d9189a870/1630440993633-B4EY41YEZ5XQZD3OGQBW/_Y4A5304-Edit.jpg) **Polly:** And I think that those were all the connectors. What was interesting for me is to get inside Madeline's brain. The fact that what was a little bit hard at first is that what we miss is the physicality, right? What both of us do with installation and with dance is very physical. I always think about structure and color together, and it's really fun to have different systems and play with all these different things. And I had never really thought about the time, but I think it's hard not to right now. And COVID has really colored a lot of the exhibition.  And so, I love the idea that I could bring a kind of map. I could play with _her_ maps, because she's really mapping the space. And that was, for me, a really interesting idea, and also kind of mapping emotion and time, all of these things, that are in her world and in my world—visual, not literal. And so I wanted something that wasn't fixed. I loved her calendar that's fixed, but it's pretty open too. My friend and studio assistant said I was supplying the dancers, and I love that, because I think when you came to me first, you said “There’s a lot of floor here. Give it to me, let's fill it.” During this whole kind of bizarre time we are in—there is something. There's a real connection, and it was just trying to figure it out formally and how to engage people too. I love the idea that it will flow and change. **Madeline:** It's not just the dancers, it's also the choreography of the space. **Polly:** And they're bringing what's been missing too. What we all miss is the kind of physicality that art gives.  **Madeline:** The bold sparkly physicality of interacting with other humans and actually seeing an art show in person where you have to navigate through things and not on Zoom. As you walk through the space, the iridescent sequins change as you move across them because of the lighting. So it's full of movement, a lot more than I anticipated until we actually laid these out on the ground. Going back, both of our work is always extremely site-specific, so this was kind of a gesture towards the inability to do that because of COVID. You couldn't come out, and me knowing that I wasn't going to be working with a group of dancers inside of a tiny space, It just wouldn't be appropriate right now. So it was kind of a gesture to do that in two different ways. One was choreographing the viewer and one was kind of choreographing the entire year. So it's like this adjunct calendar where you can look up your birthday or whatever day it is and see this one move, and you can either decide to try it or interpret it or not. What I love about your piece and how it fits so well with this impossible calendar, which is also my own language. You can look at the titles of the work, but it's hard to discern what day is what and what month is what. Your piece is called _Eight Days a Week_, which I think is so great, because that's also an impossible week, but it's also exactly how all of our weeks have been feeling. And the fact that you're creating a score for each week that will then totally rearrange this pattern on the floor, which will then thus rearrange the way that the viewers are going to be maneuvering through the space and how they can even view the wall pieces, it has humor and, I think, is really poignant and timely. \_Y4A5379.jpg ![_Y4A5379.jpg](https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/56c346b607eaa09d9189a870/1630441025982-FFMXPZ3C122UYRAWYAWW/_Y4A5379.jpg) **Polly:** Well, I really wanted it to be spontaneous. And I also wanted help. I wanted Madeline to engage too. So it was really important for me to have her interpret my drawings. I didn't know what she was going to do. I wanted to sort of be hands off and try to figure out what hands-off meant. It was interesting to really give this over. I think a lot of us are control freaks, but I love the idea of it being a real collaboration. I gave her the pieces and just a sketch. Every week, we'll work with sketches, but it's almost like improv. It's improvisational, and it's not hard, fast and fixed. Time isn't. We will learn from it. I think that that's the interesting thing. What can you do? Make the best of this very strange situation we're in.  And that's what collaboration is for me. Let's try this and see what happens and see what we've learned from it, and it's almost like a dress rehearsal. I think that's a great idea, this idea of rehearsal. You have rehearsals, so I wanted it to be live and I had complete faith. I had more faith than Madeline.  I've been very lucky in life. You know what happens? I'm a total contrary person. And if somebody asked me, well, what are you going to do? It's like, well, I'm not ready yet to fix it and nail it. And I think that was good in the sense. **Madeline:** That is so inspiring, Polly. I hope that never changes.  **Polly:** Thank you. It just allowed me to continue the conversation with you, which is what we're all missing. I mean, to do a two person show now was such a joy, because we all feel so disconnected. Yes, artists like to work by themselves in a bubble, but no, not necessarily. And I think that it's being open to a dialogue, and I love her drawings. I think they're really special. And I love the language. And I liked the idea that the lines jumped off onto the floor, and then people are also the dancers. So for me, I think it's just so interesting all the kinds of connections that the show made.  **Madeline:** And then to add another layer to that, Stephen Westfall, who is also a synesthete, who was my faculty when I was at Bard and a very close friend of Polly's, he contributed this amazing text that kind of crystallizes what synesthesia is and does and how we both interact with it really differently, but how this dialogue really makes sense together and is continuing. It's very much a live conversation is how I see this piece. I mean, it wasn't a three person show, it was a two person show, but I do feel like his text really kind of laid the groundwork for contextualizing how to enter this space and understanding the dynamic between the two pieces. If it wasn't already obvious. **Polly:** I think his spirit is there and his spirit's there in both of our works, and his being able to articulate it was really wonderful. He's one of my oldest friends, and I just thought, “Oh my God, he's the one.” I think the text came first. And then he wanted more. You sent him some sketches, but I think that things being this chaotic before a show is just the way it is. It always is, rehearsal's always crazy. Right? \_Y4A5409.jpg ![_Y4A5409.jpg](https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/56c346b607eaa09d9189a870/1630441065331-R0M3NWU4WJJSADCBFPKD/_Y4A5409.jpg) **Madeline:** It has to be, it has to be, ‘cause that's how you figure out what you want. Yeah. Otherwise it's just boring.  **Polly:** Absolutely. And this is work of mine that I do need help with. It's very different from a lot of my work. It's about going to a zone. And I think that's what dancers do too. And for me, the color is the aura in the room. It's just, you know, you have these emotions, you have these colors, you have this light. And also, I thought for California too, we all need that physicality too. And so, this is my show girl work, it's Las Vegas.  **Madeline:** It's very summery, but will you talk a little bit about the history of these fabrics and some of the lines and you know, how some of them have these really cool scissor edges?  **Polly:** It was interesting, because I've been working with fabric for a long time, and I wanted Madeline to know the irregularity of it. There's some cuts in there, and buying fabric still is kind of old fashioned—you can barter. A lot of it is remnant fabric from fashion. I get it in the Fashion District, in the textile district in New York City, and I love that it's synthetic sequins, old-fashioned sequins are labor intensive. Now there's a machine that can make that. It's incredible fabric. But these kinds of weird cutouts—it's sampling. You go to the fabric people, and if you're nice to them, a lot of times a yard becomes a yard and a half. But this fabric, when I found it, it's almost iridescent. It's the first fabric that I cut so that I could bring the viewer into the painting. Before people had to walk around the work, but this—the negative space is as important as the positive. For me, that was really important. These pieces, the viewer, have always been important, but I like this idea that they're in a painting. That's a very different feeling than looking at a painting, but I love the wall too. And I really like the fact that Madeline had to choreograph the work for her work too, so people can see her work. You sketch the floor. I said, "Sketch it. Then call me.” I really wanted to give you total freedom and I didn't want you to be, "Oh, this is what Polly wants."  **Madeline:** No, I appreciated  your preliminary map with the colors and the lines everywhere. And so that was how I just unpacked the box and laid them all out to look at them. Then immediately, there's the line, you see all the negative space, especially. It's very prominent, because it's bright white. So it does kind of look like these paint strips on a canvas. The shapes between the works kind of became how I ended up creating the patterns or the shapes. But then also making sure that someone could very easily walk around the perimeter of the space or even through in certain areas. I didn't want anyone to enter the space and feel like they could take two steps in and would have to turn around. I wanted them to feel very welcome.  And so that immediately changes the preliminary floor plan that Polly had sent over. And I think we went through three or four different iterations before kind of nailing the balance that just felt like, “Oh, _this_ is this week.” And that was what I was going for, because it was, you know, it's going to change, this pattern is going to change every week. So it was like, what does this week feel like and where should the colors be and what are the spaces in lines in between? It was very improvisational, but I feel like those prompts were really important to me. I wouldn't have been able to do that without your map and you know, me feeling what that week was about.  **You were talking about Stephen's texts. When you, Madeline, were talking about your synesthesia and saying how, without a doubt, Polly's synesthetic—Stephen talks about how everyone's born with synesthesia and is taught and conditioned to not experience it. So I feel there's an element of rediscovery in this show, both through the synesthesia aspect, but then also with you both talking about inviting people in, people gathering again, being able to have a two person show again. Was that element of rediscovery something that you had in mind when putting this together?** **Madeline:** Personally, it wasn't a rediscovery, ‘cause I do agree with Stephen, in understanding and having read a lot about how children all have synesthesia. You're kind of wired with all of these connections and your senses are really crossed, and then it's not technically useful in our culture and society to associate a color or a smell or to have these cross senses once you start thinking in a more logical and slightly less metaphorical manner. But I do feel like the connections don't go away, they're just underused. So it's kind of like an atrophied muscle that's still there that you could actually tap into. So for me it was hopefully like a jumper cable for other people to kind of enter and realize that they have these associations with the months or time or the notion that this week looks like this. Maneuvering through the week has some association with this pattern of how you move through space and kind of to think about that and know that everyone has associations with weeks, with the days of the weeks, with time, with numbers, with their own birthday, with where they are in space. I think it was more of an invitation for the viewer to get triggered in that way, personally.   The other thing is I think we're the first show at the space that is a two person show. I think the rest of them are solos. That was exciting to me.  **Polly:** It's funny, late in life, I started doing two person shows, and it's kind of interesting that it's not something a lot of galleries do. For me, it's such a joy. Most artist's friends are other artists, and every time I've done it, it's really been wonderful in the sense that it's unpredictable. It's just, you do it. You show up, and you do it. I think the interesting thing is that you said being able to connect and dialogue and think about all these things. What I like about the title is that it's very inclusive. _Some people see time_. Whoa, what does that mean? I think it's a very ‘up’ thing, you know. It's hope. It's a very hopeful thing. But it's not a linear thing either, like two people connecting and making a show together.  ![_Y4A5316-Edit.jpg](https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/56c346b607eaa09d9189a870/1630441087530-1OBX5ZVHH38TR2GJOGDA/_Y4A5316-Edit.jpg) ![_Y4A5319.jpg](https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/56c346b607eaa09d9189a870/1630441087711-R9DELT5ERYUDVT36SMHX/_Y4A5319.jpg) ![_Y4A5320.jpg](https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/56c346b607eaa09d9189a870/1630441090433-KZVMZE5DNA5FV0F3C1X6/_Y4A5320.jpg) ![_Y4A5324.jpg](https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/56c346b607eaa09d9189a870/1630441090704-BJET0L6YLVCBQKY1DRTA/_Y4A5324.jpg) ![_Y4A5329.jpg](https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/56c346b607eaa09d9189a870/1630441092077-BAL2E55CYBVOQ4FEIQMO/_Y4A5329.jpg) **I think that, thinking about the title and thinking about just the way that we experience and interpret time, this show in particular thinks of time in such a visual way. We interpret time in the movement of someone in front of us. In movies when time stops, everyone just stops and stands still. So I want to ask, “Is seeing believing?"** **Madeline:** I don't know if I have an answer to that question. I feel like both of us have these kind of embedded rules in the work where, you know, it's the opposite of everyone freezing and stopping time. It's like both of these pieces, there's a movement for every single day. There's a different pattern in choreography for every week. There's kind of this sense of movement so that time can continue. And I think that, at least for me, part of the confusion and vertigo of this past period has been: where's the momentum coming from? Usually we work off schedules and have all these dates and holidays. There's all these kinds of time markers, and all of those went away. The best I can do is come up with a move for every single day of the year, so that time continues to not freeze. I think Polly's, it would be so different if the piece was a sculpture for the floor that did not move for the whole time. And the fact that it was completely flexible and is going to change every week is where I think the optimism comes in that Polly was talking about. It’s hopeful, ‘cause we're making, you know, we didn't actually build a clock, but in a way the second hand is ticking when you go inside the space. Like you can actually feel the movement of time being kickstarted again.  **Polly:** I think we're both believers. We believe. It's a really hard time. I think that besides COVID, coming off an incredibly intense political situation, I think that this country... and it hasn't stopped, but it was a real roller coaster emotionally. So many people have died. There's just a lot to deal with. And how do you pick up the pieces? And I think the ‘pick up the pieces’ was a conversation. And I think that conversation and actually having a show, that's a wonderful thing. I've been in a couple of group shows and things like that, but actually there wasn't that much connection. But because it's just two people having a conversation, it felt really good. So that  makes me a desperate optimist. \_Y4A5410.jpg ![_Y4A5410.jpg](https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/56c346b607eaa09d9189a870/1630441137420-M9Y5MJ5WSMCJJ34MO25E/_Y4A5410.jpg) **Any final words?** **Polly:** The thing too that I think is really interesting is the performance that I don't know a lot of, and Madeline is very sophisticated, and I was so glad. I said to her, the lighting looks really good. I think that light is so important and has so much to do with synesthesia—light and color. So for me, it was very exciting to use Madeline to her best.  **Madeline:** I love the spotlights on your sequins. That was the most fun was doing the light after laying out the pieces and then just moving the spotlights over them was so entertaining, Polly, such a spectacle. **Polly:** I hate lighting!  **Madeline:** I had a lot of fun. That was the best part of the install for me. **Polly:** That's so wonderful to hear.   **Madeline:** They're all multicolored, like you shine it in one direction. It's like velvet, and they're green on one side and orange on the other side. It was really kind of psychedelic. **Polly:** You know, that material is amazing. It's so crazy. And I think they are really hard to work with, but not in this sense. That's why I had help and it was just such a wonderful experience to be able to go forward to move your wonderful dancers. Yeah. We had a crew of dancers and we had one for every day. We have them all. We've got a huge cast. **Madeline:** There's not two of the same color actually. Which I don't think will come across in photos. Cause there's a couple that are dark and a couple that are red that look similar. But when you look close  they're really different. **Polly:** Everyone had to be a different color. And that's really interesting for me, because that's the line of the fabric so that they buy every possible color. So you have all the potential and all the possibilities. And that goes to the whole idea of optimism too. I think this whole idea of potential, possibility. You're giving yourself all of these possibilities, and that's what I think is so wonderful about your movement. You're giving us so many movements. It's just really that your imagination is really deep. And you're also generous. I think that for me, it's really that you're giving us scores, but it's very open. **Madeline:** Everyone interprets each of those notations as a completely different move. So that's a pleasure for me to watch. I'll have one motion in my head and notate it and then it comes out in an infinite number of ways. * * * Photographed by Darian Zahedi See _Some People See Time_ at the Dries Van Noten Little House at 451 N. La Cienega Blvd. in Los Angeles through September 11, 2021.